Where Are All the Scientologists?

I overheard someone talking about a recent “big” Church of Scientology event in Los Angeles the other day. This was one of the biggest of the six yearly events that David Miscavige puts on for all Scientologists. The Scientologist was quite perplexed, “There are 40,000 Scientologists in Los Angeles, and, at best, we can only get 4,000 to the events. Where are the rest?”

It is well known outside of Scientology that quite a number of those “Scientologists” who do show up at the big events do not consider themselves Scientologists. They show up out of curiosity, but slip past the post-event “sales gauntlet” without buying the latest Miscavige release. So even the count of event attendees is inflated — there are even fewer active Scientologists than event attendance would indicate.

Where are all the Scientologists?

Recently, David Miscavige released “The Basics”: A liberal rewrite and repackage of the basic books which were originally authored by L. Ron Hubbard. Based on the “number of Scientologists world wide”, Miscavige had a large number of the book and tape sets printed up, ready to be grabbed up by all those faithful Scientologists. “The Basics” were released with great fanfare … but surprisingly (to Miscavige), very few book sets actually sold! He had tons of books left over. How could this be?

In desperation, Miscavige has now resorted to sending out hit teams of loyal Scientologists, with lists of “Scientologists” who didn’t buy the new books — to force the recalcitrants with threats of dire punishments, to buy Miscavige’s new books! But the hit teams are having a lot of trouble. The books just aren’t selling!

Where are all the Scientologists?

After a tremendous push, using the heaviest threats over a period of years, the Church of Scientology has managed to purchase a small number of their well publicized “new buildings” but that has been a disaster. The “showcase” buildings bought and renovated at the beginning of the campaign, years ago, are expensive and empty debacles today. The more recent purchases remain as uninhabited shells with no money left to renovate them. The few parishioners who had any money have either been tapped out, have dropped out, or both.

Where are all the Scientologists?

Miscavige’s Church of Scientology claims more than eight million members world wide, but book sales and event participation show the numbers, world wide, are in the low tens of thousands. And the numbers keep dropping.

The local churches are empty; course rooms are empty; donations are down; world wide the church’s statistics are crashing.

There has been a huge project recently, ordered with the highest priority by Miscavige, to bring all Scientologists’ address information up to date — find out where everybody is! They are using every technique they can think of to track down everyone who ever had any contact with the church — much to the dismay of those who thought they’d finally managed to stop the junk mail from Scientology. And, again, the results have been a complete catastrophe. What they are coming up with is merely confirming that a vast majority of those “Scientologists” are not, in actual fact, Scientologists. They don’t want to have anything to do with the church.

Because of the church’s threats of “fair game” and “disconnection”, many of those who have left Scientology do not talk about it with other Scientologists. They just stop participating. In this way they can keep contact with friends, family and clients who may still be in Scientology. As a result, the church still thinks these non-Scientologists are “faithful but inactive”. They aren’t. The number of Scientologists is even smaller than Miscavige thinks.

So, where are all the Scientologists?

Gone. Miscavige’s Church of Scientology no longer controls these people. They are free.

  • Those few who still wish to practice Hubbard’s technology do so as part of the loose association known as the Freezone. Everything is available there.
  • Some ex-Scientologists have needed help recovering from bad experiences within the church, especially if they were in the Sea Org. They are recovering.
  • But most ex-Scientologists are living good lives, free to look at anything they want, free to think the thoughts they decide to think — simply living life the way they decide.

If you are still a Scientologist, but are wondering about it, don’t worry, the world outside of Miscavige’s Church of Scientology is a great place. You will lose nothing of value by stepping away from Miscavige’s totalitarian control. Your friends are waiting for you.

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55 Responses to Where Are All the Scientologists?

  1. Anonymous says:

    Nothing makes you appreciate freedom like having lost it. Experiencing Scientology, and then leaving and experiencing freedom again is wonderful.I won’t be fooled again.

  2. Anonymous says:

    Yeah, I just stopped showing up after the “last straw”. I stopped answering the phone, I had to change my cell phone number and I had to do that “rope a dope” from the constant calls and attempts to contact me for the better part of a year before they started tapering off.I’ll never set foot in any org again, not after learning what that diminutive little Napoleon has been up to. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg–finding that out!Yes, freedom is very much appreciated after Scientology

  3. Anonymous says:

    I get the feeling this is quite a difference if you compare to like a year ago? Is that so? Or have it been like this for longer than I realise?/just an outsider looking in.

  4. Just Bill says:

    It is hard to be sure, exactly, because the Church of Scientology carefully hides all information, but, yes, it is obviously worse now.The church has been shrinking steadily for the last 20 years or so, but in the last year the trend has accelerated. Now it’s more like an implosion. Even Scientologists can see it now.The implosion is caused by two main factors. First, the tremendous amount of information now available about the church driven by the Anonymous movement, and, second, Miscavige has definitely gone over the edge.

  5. jere says:

    What utter crap. Scientologists are filling courserooms in their Churches of Scientology all over the world — those students are studying the basic books. I’ve seen it myself, I’m studying the basic books and have been enjoying it immensely. Harrassment never stopped Scientologists before — what makes you think it will have any effect now?

  6. Just Bill says:

    @JereThanks for responding. I appreciate your viewpoint. Actually, I think Miscavige’s big push on “The Basics” has caused a temporary boost in some course rooms.That’s nice.But you look closely at this “mini boom”. Really look. In your area, how many “Scientologists” are there supposed to be? 40,000 in Los Angeles, for instance. With a massive push on the new “Basics” how many are on course? A dozen or two? Where are all the Scientologists?Are you paying attention to reality?And look further. NONE of those on “The Basics” are moving up the Bridge. They have ALL been taken off other courses, other auditing, their progress up the Bridge (if any) has been stopped!Don’t you wonder why?Willy-nilly, with no regard to whether they were progressing fine or bugged, they were ordered by Miscavige to stop what they were doing, pay $4,000.00 and spend lots of time doing Miscavige’s latest “bright idea”.Each time one of Miscavige’s out-tech, bright ideas interrupts all Scientologists, a significant number give up and drop away. This is another attack on Scientologist’s progress.Why don’t you see what is really going on?You see “booming” courses — but it’s really a pathetically small subset of “all Scientologists”, and they have had their progress “up the Bridge” interrupted yet again by Miscavige. You think this is good?Nothing I said in my article was false. Miscavige’s corruption and destruction of the Church of Scientology will not be altered by “The Basics”. Look deeper and you will see the disaster currently going on in the church.

  7. Anonomomily says:

    Hey Bill, if you follow the link toJERE the scieno, to her blog page, there are lots of further links to scieno websites. One thing I found interesting was that many of those sites had not been updated for some time…Just sayin’. The sad part is where they talk about indoctrinating their little kids. Great blog, as usual! Man, that Jethro pissed me off yesterday. He must be a member of Swineology.

  8. Truth says:

    Oh so true. Sad to see so many Scientologists decieved. When do Scientologists think they finally got “real” Scientology. KSW no longer matters. Also consider that there are about 1500 Sea org members in LA. So the numbers are even worse. Sea Org members are made too go to the events to fill the seats. The church is on it’e way out. I can’t wait!Maybe if the church were to take responsibility for their actions as they teach others to do, things might be different. They set themselves on this destructive path.

  9. Anonymous says:

    You claim you “overheard someone” saying, “There are 40,000 Scientologists in Los Angeles, and, at best, we can only get 4,000 to the events. Where are the rest?”, and yet we have no proof that you didn’t just make this quote up. And even if you didn’t make it up – so what? What does it prove? Then you make random and baseless claims about massive amounts of Basics books remaining unsold to DM’s great disappointment. Seriously, dude: Where are you getting your information? You are talking about these things as if you have inside information and as if you know what you are talking about. Let me make it clear – you don’t. You speak of the new orgs being “hollow and empty” when you and I both know, you have never set foot in them. In an even more bizarre twist of logic, you point to the undeniable fact that the Churches of Scientology have acquired many new buildings recently (including a skyscraper and a castle) and then you somehow manage to call this a “disaster”. LOL! Up is down, day is night, black is white, owning lots of real estate is a disaster. Allllllrighty then!Out of one side of your face you claim that no one is buying Scientology product and that there are almost no parishioners left. Then, out of the other side of your mouth, and in the same blog post even, you acknowledge the Church’s recent purchases of millions of dollars of prime real estate and that parishioners worked to make it happen. So which IS it? You can’t have it both ways. Either the Church is powerful or it is not. Either it’s running out of money or it’s not. Either it has lots of faithful parishioners or it doesn’t. You conspiracy theorists keep mutating your model of the Church to suit your warped needs, since in some sentences you seek to paint them as a penniless hoax and yet at other times you seek to paint them as a powerful and threatening global conspiracy. Make up your mind.

  10. Just Bill says:

    @ScientolgistWow, you really got excited here. Take a deep breath, calm down.I’m a bit upset that, while accusing me of having no evidence, you accuse me of things — with no evidence. WTF? If you’re going to pretend to take the high ground, try a little harder.You accuse me of lying about L.A. Events — with absolutely no evidence! I really hate to tell you, I’m not lying. They really are bemoaning the fact that they can only get 4,000 to an L.A. event when they should be pulling in 40,000 — the supposed count of L.A. Scientologists.Then you ask, “What does that prove?” Um… 4,000 instead of 40,000? Do you see a slight drop in numbers? Wouldn’t that raise the question “Where are all the Scientologists?” Isn’t that what I’m asking. Isn’t that pretty much the point!Then you take offense at my story about David Miscavige’s Basics and say I’m talking “as if you have inside information and as if you know what you are talking about.” Um… Seriously “dude”, I do. The story is accurate. I assume you’ve been assigned to one of the “hit teams” to find and force Scientologists to buy “The Basics”. Tell me, haven’t you wondered why you have to force Scientologists to buy new Scientology books? Doesn’t that seem, well, wrong?Then you go into an extensive rant about the new buildings. **sigh** These are not signs of expansion. These are not signs of health. They are certainly not signs of wealth! You need to read my long exposé on that whole subject. You’re so proud of these “new buildings”, but the new buildings are killing the orgs. It is a disaster. Look under the shiny covers and you will see how very, very hard it has made things for the local orgs.The parishioners bought the new buildings, not the church. Get it? The local church can’t afford it. They don’t have the customers to fill it. Many of the “new” buildings have been sitting, empty, for years because they can’t afford to renovate them. Even if they could get the renovations finished, they can’t afford to maintain those bigger buildings. The parishioners, who would be taking services were screwed out of every dime and so they can’t take any services! Get it? The new buildings are killing the orgs.No, there is no contradiction or logical fallacy. The new buildings are a sign of extreme desperation for a collapsing church. To put it in your terms, Miscavige is running a “having to have before you can do”. Now that’s illogical. Do you get it now?

  11. Anonymous says:

    Anonymous Scientologist,The CofS WAS powerfull. And is finally declining. Thankfully. He never set foot in an org…he’s an exscientologist. As am I. You and I know most orgs are empty. I went on mission to several orgs here in the US and every one of them was empty. Two of the orgs has staff members sleeping in the org because they didn’t make any money. As is the way it currently is with most orgs. Even in the more successful orgs the staff get meager wages. $50.00-200.00 a week. If that.

  12. Anonymous says:

    Scientology claims to have 8 to 15 million members worldwideMormon membership worldwide is 12.8 millionnumber of LDS wards within a 30 mile radius of DC: 40-50average ward size: 100-200 members (average)members within radius: 4,000-10,000number of orgs within radius: 1missions: 1Scientology lacks any noticeable presence in south america, russia, China, japan, India, most of Africa and the south pacific. So its population density in the rest of the world would need to be higher.To prove equivalency, the founding org and Alexandria mission would need a combined membership of4,000 or more ScientologistsEvent space they have rented out twice this year: maximum capacity of 300 peopleNumber of Orgs/Mission worldwide: 150?Reported number of Scientologists worldwide: 8 to 15 millionNumber of Scientologists that would be needed per Org/Mission: 50,000 to 100,000number of Scientologist purportedly in US in 2001: 50,000England & Wales: 1,700Australia: 2,500Canada: 1,500New Zeland: 280Germany: 6,0002001 Total: 61,980Number of unaccounted for Scientologists in 2001: 7.938 to 14.938 million.

  13. Anonymous says:

    I’d really like to see if we can get some non-outed anons to join up to see it from the inside out for 1st hand accounts.A nice thing to do would be to place a person at every entrance to meter the amount of traffic going in and out of scion facilities – one of those thumb counters – or maybe some investigative journalists in there.

  14. He sure did get excited but there was as much panic as anger.It was as if he was shouting “The ship is not sinking, I am not drowning, the sea is not wet!” and not being able to convince even himself.

  15. Just Bill says:

    Thanks everyone for the additional information about Miscavige’s missing Scientologists.You know, back in the day, Scientologists actually knew that the physical stuff, like big fancy buildings filled with shiny stuff, was unimportant. Back in the day, it was about people — helping people. (We thought we were helping people, anyway.) Today, Scientologists have been fooled into looking at the buildings and ignore the fact that they are empty.It isn’t so odd that Miscavige has completely inverted the importances. Anyone who knows him would expect it. What is odd is that Scientologists went along with it.

  16. Truth says:

    One more sad thing is that Scientologists don’t even see that they cannot have their own opinion. They think they do but they really don’t. You try showing a Scientologis the hand writen OT3 data and they deny and deny. But there it is in Ron’s written hand. And there’s also audio of it as well.DM feeds Scientlogists the data he wants them to have. If any Scientologist so much as questions what’s happening in Scientology they are either outed and declared very quickly so as not to “infect” the rest of the flock or they are sec checked like mad (which the person has to pay for). DM runs Scientology with scare tactics. But every day that goes by is another day Scientologists can see for themselves what is happening within Scientology. And for ex members to feel safer to speak out. The “church” is losing money and now they’re trying to get it from their members. Which are already trying to pay $500,000.00 (no joke) for “going up the bridge”.

  17. Anonymous says:

    “They really are bemoaning the fact that they can only get 4,000 to an L.A. event when they should be pulling in 40,000″WHO is bemoaning it, specifically? And how do you know? Proof or it didn’t happen.—-“”Where are all the Scientologists?” Isn’t that what I’m asking. Isn’t that pretty much the point!”Most Scientologists DON’T attend big Scientology events. So what? Who cares? (There was recently a big important Baptist event in my city and my family, who is mostly Baptist, didn’t attend that either.) Big showy gala suit-and-tie events only appeal to a small percentage of the population, including Scientologists. *shrug*—-“The parishioners, who would be taking services were screwed out of every dime and so they can’t take any services!”Your description doesn’t fit ANYONE I know. Seriously. And anyone reading this is welcome to find out for themselves what’s going on by visiting their local Church of Scientology. Don’t listen to bloggers like him OR me, folks, go straight to the source and see what’s what.—-“To put it in your terms, Miscavige is running a “having to have before you can do”. Now that’s illogical.”Consider that maybe, just maybe, he knows something you don’t.

  18. Anonymous says:

    Good job as usual Bill. I bet Miscavige really, really, really hates you.

  19. Just Bill says:

    @Scientologist, againYou say, “WHO is bemoaning it, specifically? And how do you know? Proof or it didn’t happen.”Um… No. I’m not giving out information that will help you harass people. But thanks for asking. Tell me, are you claiming that the estimated number of Scientologists in L.A. isn’t 40,000? It is. Are you claiming that the events can’t even pull in 4,000? That is the average count at the L.A. events. Are you claiming that people involved aren’t upset about it? Hmmm? Exactly what is so unbelievable?You say “Most Scientologists DON’T attend big Scientology events”.ORLY? Is that the line being used to explain it? The question is “Where are all the Scientologists?” For your enlightenment, the answer isn’t “Oh, they’re still loyal Scientologists, they just don’t take any services, buy any books, go to any events or anything else.” Do you see how silly that “explanation” is? Those “Scientologists” who emphatically are not involved in Scientology are … wait for it … not Scientologists! Get it?You despute my statement that Scientologists have been screwed out of every dime. You say “Don’t listen to bloggers like him OR me, folks, go straight to the source and see what’s what”. Um… I am that source. I was a “loyal Scientologist” in the field as the church hammered and hammered and squeezed and squeezed. I, and the other “loyal Scientologists” went deeply into debt to pay for these “new buildings”. You want the source for that information, that’s me and others just like me, who were coerced into very bad financial decisions.And finally in response to my barb about Miscavige running “having to have before you can do”, you say, “Consider that maybe, just maybe, he knows something you don’t.”Hmmm. Miscavige “knows something” that makes it a good idea to violate LRH policy? Misavige “knows something” that makes it a good idea to burden all the local orgs with massive expenses when they can’t pay their staff today? Miscavige “knows something” that makes “putting the cart before the horse”, a good business decision? Well, how about you consider this, maybe Miscavige is incompetent, is violating basic, important LRH policy and is actively destroying the Church of Scientology — while you applaud!

  20. Fredric says:

    There are at most some 40,000 remaining Scientology customers world wide. That number continues to drop due to the overwhelming positive consumer advocacy of the past 15 years.Along came Anonymous and now the remaining customers are fleeing, and even some crime bosses and ringleaders have fled.

  21. Fredric says:

    > Then you make random and > baseless claims about massive > amounts of Basics books > remaining unsold to DM's great > disappointment. Seriously, dude: > Where are you getting your > information?We have video coverage of Scientology business offices that have endless boxes of new books stacked up, sitting there gathering dust because nobody real wants to purchase them.Video taken by the ARSCC and now Anonymous show several of the remaining business offices with piles of worthless books that the crime syndicate's reingleaders try to get their remaining customers to purchase so thatthey can be "donated" to libraries.We also have many reports around the world of libraries sending whatever few books that customers "donate" straight to the recycle bin because no library anywhere accepts them due to the core criminality of the Scientology crime syndicate.While Miscaviage continues to "squirrel" everything Hubbard ever spewed while doped to the gills, his effort to save his criminal enterprise is doomed to failure. The ARSCC and now Anonymous are dismantleing the criminal enterprise, something that Federal officers would do if they had the Congressional funding to do so (see Lt. Ray Emmon's Summary Report to his FBI supervisors.)Scientology customers can get all they need in the Free Zone and they can get it without giving up their freedom, their human rights, or their minds.

  22. Dick says:

    Another good post….

  23. Anonymous says:

    You *really* pushed someone’s buttons with this one! Very nice!

  24. Just Bill says:

    They did get a bit defensive, didn’t they? LOL!

  25. Truth says:

    Books stacking up and not sold…well of course. Look what happened with the Dianetics books when they re re re re re released them. You know why it was a very well sold book??? Because the church itself bought thousands and thousands and thousands of their own Dianetics books so that it would wind up on best sellers lists. This is fact! My very good friend was one of those people hired to go buy boxes of Dianetics books from the local book stores in his area. And they were all stored in the downtown warehouse the “church” has. Rotting!The Church now makes it’s own books and can’t get them into bookstores very easily. So they tell Scientologists that EVERY library in the US has a full stock of Scientology books in them…go look for yourself and you will see the lie they’ve laid.

  26. Anonymous says:

    Great post. I was in the Sea Org in LA. At times I helped with various aspects of setting up the events and driving out delivering tickets to those that had confirmed. Vicky Shantz CO CLO WUS would state repeatedly at musters about the 40,000 Scienos in the area yet only 4,000 would show up. For many events held at the base parking lot I doubt it was even this much, perhaps at the Shrine you could get that many, but hard to say and the top level was where the staff would sit and it was often empty towards the back.So where did the 40,000 number come from? Who knows? Scn has never been one to spout off accurate numbers when it came to PR purposes, it’s all part of their acceptable truth mindset. Maybe if you counted every name in CF since they’ve been in LA, but who in their right mind could assume they were all still Scienos? It’s obviously another padded stat. So Vicky, don’t get all worked up with only 4,000 (if that) showing up. You’re likely getting 80% of the actual people who wold even give it a second thought.

  27. Anonymous says:

    Fredric said: “We have video coverage of Scientology business offices that have endless boxes of new books stacked up, sitting there gathering dust because nobody real wants to purchase them.”That’s your own interpretation. In truth, Scientology books are printed only in amounts that are already called for. They’re printed in-house as needed, so there’s never any oversupply. If you saw mountains of boxes of books somewhere, they exist for a purpose.”no library anywhere accepts them due to the core criminality of the Scientology crime syndicate.”That’s a lie, and anyone can browse the online interfaces of most public libraries to see that there are indeed Scientology Basics books in most libraries.

  28. Just Bill says:

    @ScientologistYou said, “In truth, Scientology books are printed only in amounts that are already called for. They’re printed in-house as needed, so there’s never any oversupply”You actually don’t know what you’re talking about, but thanks for trying. Bridge Publications certainly may print “only in amounts that are already called for” but that isn’t true of all the churches. They are ordered to buy specific numbers of books — as determined by Miscavige. And the amounts are determined by the bogus “total Scientologists” in the area. Get it?The end result of such “ordering” is the huge overstock as described by Fredric.You can check. The local churches are not allowed to order “as needed”, the numbers are dictated from above and are quite excessive.As for the library donations, I haven’t checked personally, but I’ve seen many, many stories posted on the Internet about “Scientology Library Donations” ending up on Ebay and in used book stores, still in the original wrappers. I’ve read stories from librarians who are annoyed with such unsolicited and unwanted donations. But, all one has to do is check, the truth is what is there (or not there), not what anyone says.

  29. Just Bill says:

    @ScientologistI am not going to engage in a ridiculous “You’re wrong!” “No, you’re wrong!” type of argument. It is boring. If you have anything substantial to add to my fund of knowledge, I welcome it.

  30. Anonymous says:

    I see you childishly chose not to allow my last post pressing you further for actual proof of your numerous unsourced lies and claims. There’s nothing ridiculous about insisting that someone who makes such cowardly, outlandish accusations should be able to back them up. You have no “fund of knowledge”.In so doing, you’ve further demonstrated your extremely small, hateful, and deliberately deceptive nature. It comes as no surprise that you only want to allow comments from your usual gang of yes-men posters (half of whom are probably YOU anyway).

  31. Just Bill says:

    @ScientologistYou are being disengenuous. We are not discussing these things in an open framework. You know that I cannot disclose my sources — because you will then harass, threaten and punish my sources. This is what you want, my sources.However, you are not so constrained. You claim I am wrong (and I am very willing to be corrected). You could put me in touch with people who could give me verifiable information on the subject, and then no one would get punished, since it would be authorized. You could provide documentation and then no one would get punished.But you don’t. If I am wrong, you could provide the evidence of that. Why don’t you?

  32. Just Bill says:

    Here is how the finances of the local Church of Scientology work. This is a bit of a simplification.The money comes in. Services, such as auditing, training and the like, goes in one bucket. Bookstore sales, books tapes, meters, goes in another bucket. Pure donations, like IAS, the new buildings, Superpower, go in a different bucket.At the end of the week the local church does “financial planning” or “FP” for the coming week. They decide how to spend the money. Well, not quite.There is something else in this picture. At every church there is a post called “Flag Banking Officer” or FBO. This person is not a local staff member. This person works directly for International Management, or, Miscavige. (The “Flag” in the title refers to International Management, not the “Flag Land Base”) The FBO has total control of the local church’s finances. Certain amounts are always taken right off the top by the FBO and sent to Miscavige, the church never sees it and can’t touch it. Certain expenses are dictated by the FBO and the FP committee has no choice in those allocations.Any of the pure donation monies are off limits to the local church. They go to Miscavige (who can spend these as he wishes). The Bookstore income can only be spent by the bookstore for more books, tapes, meters, etc.The remaining monies available for the coming week, for allocation by the FP committee are vanishingly small. From this they must pay rent, utilities, supplies and so forth. If there is any money left over, the staff gets paid. Things are so bad that often the rent doesn’t even get paid.Now, down to book ordering, like “The Basics”. Normally, these books would be ordered from the bookstore bucket. However, if that bucket doesn’t have enough in it, the general bucket is used. So far so good, eh?It is my understanding that Miscavige has been running “The Basics” campaign as follows: Int Management decided how many sets each local church was going to sell, based on the “known” number of Scientologists in their area — a bogus number, of course. The local FBO demanded that their local church order that many sets, from the Bookstore bucket if there was money, or from the general bucket, if not. It was not voluntary and the local church did not decide on the amounts. Since the number of “Scientologists” was and is bogus, the church is having a horrible time getting rid of the sets stacked up in the back room.OK, anonymous Scientologist, I’m ready for your information.

  33. Truth says:

    That is exactly how the books work. Each org is ordered to have a large stock of them. The org also pays Int Management for the books and has no choice. So if they don’t sell (which they don’t) the org is stuck with them.”Most” libraries….ah, that’s not what DM said…lol.”Some Scientology books” that’s not what DM said either. The best way to discuss Scientology with a Scientologist is by speaking truth. They just can’t handle the truth. Denial runs strong in Scientologists.

  34. Just Bill says:

    @ScientologistOK, I cannot publish your response in full because it violates my simple rules. I have never insulted you. Not once have I called you names. I will not tolerate abuse. If you want to restate your opinions without the abuse, I will consider it. If you want to present actual facts, I would welcome it.I have presented the facts as I know them. You objected to these facts quite strongly, but when I ask for the basis of your objections you refuse to provide any information saying “It’s not up to me to disprove your negatives.”Excuse me? Why should I work to disprove what I know to be true? Your reasons for refusing to provide proof are just not logical. You are the one who objects. You are the one who (allegedly) has all the information that disproves my statements. If what you say is the case, it should be terribly simple for you to completely disprove all I’ve said. But you refuse!Further, you said, “You don’t know me at all, and yet just because I disagree with you about your tinfoil-hat conspiracy theories about Scientology, you’re dead convinced that I want to “harass, threaten and punish” people. Can you truly not see how far off the deep end of paranoia that is? Seriously.”I don’t know you, but I very, very, very much know Miscavige’s Church of Scientology. If I were to publish identifying information about my sources, they would be threatened, harassed and punished by your church (that is, in reality, the “you” I was referring to). Would you deny that your church viciously attacks people it disagrees with?We critics know what your Church of Scientology does to critics, and we take care to protect people from your false accusations and bogus harassment. When our sources are still in the church, they require even more protection from Miscavige and his henchmen.If you think people are fooled by your protestations of innocence, you are mistaken. It isn’t “tinfoil hat” nor paranoia, when your church actually attacks people for simply telling the truth. Your church fights the truth about itself every day, by any means, fair or (especially) foul. You must know this, since you are on the Internet and can see all the evidence.If you don’t know how vicious and over the top your church’s attacks are, then you simply haven’t looked. You probably aren’t allowed to look.Look here. When someone makes simple statements about Miscavige’s Church of Scientology which are wrong — all you, or your church need to do is provide simple proof of the correct information. No attacks are needed. No harassment is needed. No name-calling is needed. No need to frame people for bogus crimes. No need to hire PIs, distribute false accusations, spend millions on lawyers, etc. If what is being said is false, simply and politely provide facts. Why don’t you?

  35. Anonymous says:

    You’re still talking in circles. It’s not up to me to disprove your claims. You’re the one making the claims, and it’s your responsibility to either back them up or not. You have chosen not to. Good luck to you.

  36. Just Bill says:

    @ScientologistNice. I must provide proof, and expose my sources to retribution from your church.And what about you, with all your claims…? You and your church never, ever, ever provide any proof of anything you ever say. That sounds like a generality, but it is factually true. No proof, ever.The Church of Scientology makes thousands of grandiose claims and never provides any proof.No wonder you guys have so much trouble. Anyone looking at the Church of Scientology’s lack of any facts, evidence, proof would conclude that you’re all a bunch of liars.

  37. Truth says:

    Ever wonder why this Scientologist posts anonymously?? I’ll tell you why….Because if the “church” were to find out he/she was posting on any site negative to Scientology, the “church” would have this person sec checked (interigated on the e-meter)and charge them large sums of money to do the sec checking.Scientologists are scared of their own “church”. This is not a joke. As a Scientologist you are not allowed to question the actions of the CofS. If you do, you are either headed for an SP declare (disconnection with any family in the “church”)or lots of sec checks.The rest of us post anonymously for the reason that this “church” goes after people for speaking out against them. Google “Greg Housh”.

  38. Just Bill says:

    Could be. Scientologists ARE forbidden from seeing ANY “unauthorized” data – which is anything outside of the church.But this Scientologist could be OSA, someone assigned to troll the Internet and cause problems for anyone posting negative information about Scientology. This is what I expect. But OSA people get sec-checks ALL the time to keep their brainwashing up-to-date. I’d sure hate to be this guy.

  39. Anonymous says:

    Perhaps I’m being “glib,” but if I were in debate, and I believe the other party were presenting falsehoods, all I need to do is provide evidence of such. Think of it as “defense,” which as I understand is not permitted by Tech; in defense all you need to do is present sufficient evidence to discredit the accuser. No need not prove your full point, only discredit with fact, or “datum,” a verifiable contrast.Here is my challenge. I see in the latest post, Bill has posted links to census data to back up some of the claims laid forth. If the defensive side wishes to sway my opinion, he or she only needs to provide a source more compelling that those in the post. After all, we’re all to make our own decisions, both in the wog world, and in the LRH doctrine. Please show me, both of you, your cards. –omnompdx

  40. Just Bill says:

    Ah, omnompdx! You are asking the impossible of the Scientologists. They cannot provide and proof of their belief of Scientology’s “expansion” for two reasons.First, of course, is that Scientologists may “only attack, never defend”, according to Hubbard.But second, because they have no evidence.But, of course, we all knew that.

  41. lil'ol'me says:

    I’ve been following this conversation… just for grins, I checked the website for the county libraries. They do have a whopping total of 4 (count ’em FOUR) books between all the branches relating to LRH, Dianetics or CoS. When I say 4 books, i don’t mean just 4 titles. I mean 4 seperate volumes of bound, printed matter to cover a 15 mile radius.Impressive… no?Forgive me please. My BS-O-Meter buries itself in the red zone when listening to the arguments of the indoctrinated. I can be a bit snarky.Anyway… I would imagine you will not hear much more from your CoS friend as you remain unruffled even as you expose the conversation for what it is… CoS authorized trolling and attempted subjugation of those whose eyes have been opened. Well done.BTW: The tin-foil hat sounds hot. Perhaps I should make one.

  42. Anonymous says:

    Well, I am a bit late to the party, but would like to add my $.02.I assume the big event held recently in L.A. that was mentioned was the IAS event held November 1, 2008. Unlike past years, this year’s event occurred in the parking lot of Big Blue under large tents, while in the past, it has been held at the Shrine.This indicates the following:Either they don’t have enough people to warrant renting the Shrine…too few people for even Photoshop to help.orMoney is a little tightorBOTHIf scientology is doing so well, the top of Big Blue (Formerly the Cedars of Lebanon Hospital) damaged by the 1994 Northridge earthquake would have been repaired by now…and not covered by a white tarp. Additionally, the vertical sign testing center on Hollywood Blvd and the Braley Building in Pasadena(purchased 2 years ago) would also not be the mainly empty hulls they are now.

  43. Just Bill says:

    Thanks Anonymous. I hadn’t heard about the Shrine vs. the Parking Lot. LOL! Hard times!

  44. Anonymous says:

    I was recently in attendance at the 11/01/08 IAS event at Big Blue. I was surprised at the low attendance. It was less than I expected. LOL! Also, I was recently on the Basics courses at an Org and often I was only one of TWO students on course. So much for booming courserooms. LOL again!!! I just recently began reading anti Scientology websites and I was so relieved that I am not alone in my growing suspicion of Int Management. What a blowdown! While on the Basics my TA was constantly cranking higher and higher. What a bunch of squirrels. Don’t you love the way that all of us reading KSW dozens of times had no effect whatsoever when DM the master squirrel started altering the tech. What a crock. I am totally bewildered how anyone can take that midget seriously anymore. (BTW, I didn’t finish the Basics — I couldn’t stomach it any more.) Keep up the good work Just Dave.

  45. Anonymous says:

    Oops — correction to my previous posting — “Keep up the good work Just Bill.”

  46. Anonymous says:

    I know where at least one previously dedicated Scientologist is now. She went insane after completing OT V a few years ago at AOLA at a cost to her of $70,000. She now lives in total poverty and her beloved CO$ has abandoned her. Is this how a church treats a dedicated parishioner? CO$ staff had the nerve to visit her and try to sell her the Basics. When they realized that she had no income and no $, they took what remaining $ she had on account and delivered her some of the Basic books. Truly not an act of compassion. More like, get those stats even if it’s an overt product. (Bill, I don’t know if you want to post her name. I will leave it up to your judgment.) [No, I don’t want to add to her problems, but this is a very sad story – Just Bill]

  47. Anonymous says:

    I went to 3 local libraries looking for Scientology books. The catalog listed a handful (no where near a complete set) but they weren’t there.Friend of mine has a huge pile of the books from his library. Libraries usually return them or throw them out. In this case the library still had a box of them, unopened. He asked for them, and they were glad to be rid of them.Facts. Scientologists can’t handle them.

  48. Anonymous says:

    I am an ex UK staff member. Here are the facts:No one on course in CC London save a few staff members and one psyche case who is only allowed to train.No one on course in London Org outside of ‘the basics rush’ where every person is MADE to get on course or else.As above for Plymouth Org and at St Hill. Only the usual suspects are in the course room and for the whole of Europe….? Most of the people in the course room are not English, they are Hungarian or Polish. I know… I was a supervisor.I was at a new mission run by a couple of thugs. During my whole time there (which was one year training and 6 months on the job) I had 5 students. 3 students were personal friends of mine, 2 were friends of the ED. What can I say? It was a train crash.The mission staff were chucked out a few weeks ago for not paying their rent. That’s how well it’s doing.I looked for someone to take over from me due to personal circumstances and contacted every single mission in Europe via email. Out of 35 ‘mission’ emails sent out… 33 emails bounced back as the addresses were ‘not working’ and only 2 people got back to me. The mission stats are bogus. The missions in the uk and Ireland total 5 and that includes people’s front rooms. It’s a load of balony!I have been present when “Gold” have been filming at St Hill. We were all ordered into the course rooms to pack it out to make it look good for the cameras.The course rooms are empty.The staff at London ideal org total 40. This is the ‘winning team’ on the latest bumph. “Come and join the winning team and make the ideal org old st hill size…” What?In the whole of London you’ve got 40 people in the ideal org? That’s bad. You’re not st hill size? Then it’s not ideal is it?OK… so I was sent to ethics and banned from the mission. Why?I really don’t know.REALLY.I went to ethics, got floating needles and was still banned.My ethics were fine….so in the end I just kept on walking – especially after a whole year of verbal abuse and low down gossip from the ED. Enough was enough.I am finally free.I have £2000.00’s worth of basics package sitting in cases.I have lost money on account.My life time membership t-shirt has gone to the charity shop (the most expensive t-shirt ever) and life has never been better.No more Thursday phone calls for money before 2pm.I am now in recovery.I was a musician and artist of some repute…. and thanks to Jason Berghe’s you tube blog I know that I have made the right choice in leaving.I am rediscovering that I am actually a nice, kind person with positive beliefs about the planet.No more bookathons, bulldog stress tests where you have to drill for hours about what you’re gonna say to ‘raw meat’ and how you can ‘close’ a deal.No more RUBBISH.Where are all the Scientologists?Well… they are at the cash point drawing out their hard earned pennies to pay for the removal of body thetans and the latest ‘deal’ and if they are not there then they are staff like I was and they are writing letters, on the phone and bugging the public to go get money for them from the cash point so they can eat.It’s good bye to all that stuff. It was nuts.It is all totally bogus and I am glad that I had the balls to stand up to them all and KEEP MY ETHICS AND INTEGRITY in tact.I have learned a lot since leaving.I am so thankful for being expelled.All the best

  49. Just Bill says:

    Thanks ex-UK staff member. Good to hear you’re out. It’s all good from here.

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